Combat!!

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TheEbonPlague
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Combat!!

Post by TheEbonPlague » Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:42 am

So, as far as I can tell. The most important stat for combat is con. Two equally skilled fighters going at it? Higher Con always wins. This trait can be negated somewhat by the use of blunt weapons as; if someone gets a good head shot off then combat is short enough that no one reaches 0 stamina.

However, when fighting against any other weapon; Con is king.

Do not even think about using a shield without great or better con as the stamina costs for a single block are steep and will set you into a mode of no stamina and letting the enemy get free hits.

Con is also especially important for clinching: Clinching takes large amounts of stamina to keep with the opponent and if you're using a dagger (you should be) then you should be attacking two or three times to the enemies one causing even more stamina drain for the both of you until....one of you reaches 0 stamina.

Two of the other three combat stats have their uses (I haven't been able to do much testing on willpower) but are completely reliant on the fact that you have enough stamina to use them. Strength is useless if you can't even swing and Dexterity will just drain your reserves faster meaning you can't use your stamina to dodge attacks.

Simply put, higher con means more attacks and dodges as the fight progresses

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Japheth
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Re: Combat!!

Post by Japheth » Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:09 am

I have a few main ideas on the near-future TODO list to somewhat mitigate the OPness of Constitution (although I will probably ensure that it is a very important stat even after the nerfs). The main ideas are:
  • I'm thinking of making the amount of stamina that blocking, parrying and dodging take depend on how successful you are - if you're really good, it should take less effort and therefore less stamina.
  • I'm thinking of making the stamina for blocking and to a lesser extent parrying scale with the damage of the weapon that you're blocking and the strength of the blow behind it, and dropping in general. So standing toe to toe with a beastly strong opponent smashing you with a two handed club might be draining, but blocking a few piddly hits might be less so.
  • The current shield we have built is suppose to be a very-high protection but heavy and tiring shield to use. I might need to make some lesser protecting but lighter and quick shields (like bucklers) available for comparison. Stamina use per block is actually tied to the specific shield.
  • I am thinking of making a functionality called "Second Wind", whereby when certain trigger conditions are met, you can receive a "Second Wind" that gives you a boost of stamina. This would only be able to occur once every so often (would generally be aiming to be about once a fight, but there may be ones that trigger outside of combat too). I'd make a default one for everyone that occurred the first time they ran out, a bit of an adrenaline boost, maybe with a say 20 minute cooldown. I'd also make merits that could give you additional second winds in other circumstances - when you are close to death, when you're outnumbered, etc. Possibly also a flaw that takes away the default second wind. This would somewhat lessen the importance of stamina in the first instance.
  • Fights between armoured individuals go on for too long at the moment because they're almost always "fair" - generally people are getting a fair chance to defend themselves. I need to make more "Auxillary" moves that can open an opponent up for a bigger strike (feinting, staggering, riposting etc), as well as more ways to put people into helpless situations (more attacks that knock people over for example).
  • There is code for "Armour Piercing", whereby you have a chance to bypass your opponents armour (determined by the armour type they're wearing and your weapon type). I'm not convinced it's working properly - and also, I probably need to have a look at the skills it uses (currently it's Combat Instinct vs opponent's Armour Use, which are two skills not everyone takes). I think a bit more armour piercing would balance things a bit more - it's especially necessary for daggers to be viable.
  • More counters to clinching are needed. I'm thinking grappling will help with this.
  • The chance to hit various bodyparts needs to be rebalanced. I'd also like to look at making it select more lethal hit locations and moves when the opponent is vulnerable (for example, going for a head strike while they're down rather than chopping off their left third toe).
Also willing to hear additional ideas and thoughts on the above.

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Re: Combat!!

Post by SomeKnob » Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:26 am

I feel like other stats should influence stamina drain. While it makes sense that cons determines the cap and rate of regen, I'd suggest that:

*It drains more stamina to swing a larger weapon or to fight in armor. Str (and skills like armor use) lessens how much by.

*Dex reduces the cost of movement related actions, such as dodging, flanking, clinching, moving to an ideal range etc.

*Higher willpower increases the chance of getting a "second wind" like japh mentioned in his previous post

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Japheth
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Re: Combat!!

Post by Japheth » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:33 am

SomeKnob wrote:I feel like other stats should influence stamina drain. While it makes sense that cons determines the cap and rate of regen, I'd suggest that:

*It drains more stamina to swing a larger weapon or to fight in armor. Str (and skills like armor use) lessens how much by.

*Dex reduces the cost of movement related actions, such as dodging, flanking, clinching, moving to an ideal range etc.

*Higher willpower increases the chance of getting a "second wind" like japh mentioned in his previous post
All good ideas, I'll add them to the list.

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Re: Combat!!

Post by Japheth » Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:45 am

Combat moves now drain stamina based on the total weight you're carrying, so more weight carried means more stamina loss. This is offset by strength and the armour-use skill, and some other moves also offset by dexterity.

I also played around with the stamina values of all moves a bit. I think they're a little too low at the moment but I'd like to see what you all think.

I also reduced the damage that items take by 25% because I think it was a little too easy to tear clothes to ribbons. This will of course reduce the frequency of that stupid bug, but I do want to get to the bottom of that.

Finally, there is now a "Second Wind" that will occur approximately once ever 20 minutes when you first run out of stamina. Soon there may even be matching merits.

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Re: Combat!!

Post by Raukran » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:35 am

I'm happy to see the weight changes to combat. I think a lot of MUDs don't limit characters enough both in weight capacity, and the amount of items they can fit within containers. As a simulation and realism fan, I'm happy to see you developing reasons you wouldn't carry unnecessary luggage around if you're a serious, professional fighter.

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Re: Combat!!

Post by Japheth » Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:11 am

Raukran wrote:I'm happy to see the weight changes to combat. I think a lot of MUDs don't limit characters enough both in weight capacity, and the amount of items they can fit within containers. As a simulation and realism fan, I'm happy to see you developing reasons you wouldn't carry unnecessary luggage around if you're a serious, professional fighter.
Hold the praise until we get the balance right. I think it's a little too easy still, but it is a very tricky system to get the numbers right for. At the moment it seems you have to be pretty heavily encumbered to even be in danger of running out of stamina. I suppose I need a goal to tune towards.

I have mostly been assuming that people who are "combatants" are likely to have strength in the "Great" to "Super" range, and are likely to carry about 50kg (110lb) of gear, and probably have Adroit Armour Use. This is fairly similar to the "Stryder" character that uses a dagger, although he doesn't have Armour Use skill. The "Miss Merryweather" "Admin PC" has high Super strength and a little bit above Adroit Armour Use and it took her fighting 4 people at once to drain her stamina, and she killed 3 of the 4 of them just before that happened too...which I think is still a little bit too long.

Maybe I'll try doubling the stamina costs and seeing if it gets closer to where I think it should be.

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TheEbonPlague
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Re: Combat!!

Post by TheEbonPlague » Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:26 pm

There may be people with only "good" str who would be combat oriented and instead try to be more dex\con based. Perhaps diminishing returns after a certain point in str would balance it out a little

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Japheth
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Re: Combat!!

Post by Japheth » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:48 am

TheEbonPlague wrote:There may be people with only "good" str who would be combat oriented and instead try to be more dex\con based. Perhaps diminishing returns after a certain point in str would balance it out a little
People might try to make combatants with less strength, but they should probably choose not to wear lots of armour. For reference...I think that "Average" strength is about what your average office-bound male has, "Good" is probably what someone who hits the Gym every once in a while has, "Great" is about professional athlete level, and "Super" is probably along the lines of a Linebacker in the NFL.

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Re: Combat!!

Post by TheEbonPlague » Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:49 pm

It seems that shields are now even more of a liability than before. I blocked a single attack and lost over 140 stam (against a dagger mind you) causing me to die from lack of stamina. This was the perfect con char as well with skilled shield use

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Re: Combat!!

Post by Japheth » Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:56 am

Forgot to reduce the stamina for the shields in line with the new code changes. They should be in line with other move types now.

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Re: Combat!!

Post by TheEbonPlague » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:51 pm

<You are currently in mild pain and have no blood loss.>
<Stamina: 250/250 | Exertion: Low | You are fighting a voluptuous maiden with sunglasses at range>

A voluptuous maiden with sunglasses sheathes a heavy, pearl white-hilted sword in a faux-leather scabbard.
A voluptuous maiden with sunglasses gets a fibreglass, recurve bow.
You charge unopposed into melee range with a voluptuous maiden with sunglasses.


<You are currently in mild pain and have no blood loss.>
<Stamina: 69/250 | Exertion: Low | You are in melee with a voluptuous maiden with sunglasses>

You launch an upward slash at a voluptuous maiden with sunglasses with a heavy, pearl white-hilted sword, and a
voluptuous maiden with sunglasses attempts to ward you off, and you are dissuaded from following through with the
attack.

<You are currently in mild pain and have no blood loss.>
<Stamina: 17/250 | Exertion: Low | You are in melee with a voluptuous maiden with sunglasses>
Soooo.... I also lose 200 stam from charging into combat?

Also, the new changes have greatly nerfed the whole Con is best issue however it's given a huge buff to dex as now dex keeps stam high due to how dodging generally takes the least stam compared to other forms of defense. It also causes more attacks and doesn't drain so much stam, draining other people's stam. I was able to 1v2 two mid tier NPC's with the Super dex guy with just a sword and warding

edit: So I just realized that the someone thought it would be a good idea to put 60 pounds of arrows in the quiver of the super con guy, probably responsible for some of the huge stamina losses

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Re: Combat!!

Post by Japheth » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:47 pm

Definitely some more tweaking required though.

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TheEbonPlague
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Re: Combat!!

Post by TheEbonPlague » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:50 pm

A killer robot with circulating saw hands gets a burst of adrenaline as it gets
its second wind.


<You are currently in no pain and have no blood loss.>
<Stamina: 156/170 | Exertion: Heavy | You are in melee with a killer robot with circulating saw hands>

A very tall, strong brute bleeds from a few wounds underneath a dark brown,
cotton jumpsuit (blood drenched).


<You are currently in no pain and have no blood loss.>
<Stamina: 170/170 | Exertion: Heavy | You are in melee with a killer robot with circulating saw hands>

A killer robot with circulating saw hands is too exhausted to do much of
anything!
Pretty sure this is a combat bug. Had literally just started combat when it did this

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Japheth
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Re: Combat!!

Post by Japheth » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:07 am

Definitely a bug, as robots shouldn't require stamina for their moves. I'll look into it.

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Re: Combat!!

Post by TheEbonPlague » Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:41 am

Can we get some clarification on Small and Long arms skills? It seems like some weapons don't really use them since most of the GL chars's skills seem to hit master while those skills simply don't increase at all. Also what constitutes as a small or a long arm? Pole-arms and daggers are the extremes obviously but are swords considered long arms? Axes a short arm? Or are they mixtures depending on the particular weapon?

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Re: Combat!!

Post by Raukran » Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:42 am

I'll second the slight confusion on small arms and long arms. Honestly, I thought it was firearm related originally. It does seem like the combat skills are where most of the progression goes, and what currently matters the most.

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Re: Combat!!

Post by Japheth » Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:50 am

TheEbonPlague wrote:Can we get some clarification on Small and Long arms skills? It seems like some weapons don't really use them since most of the GL chars's skills seem to hit master while those skills simply don't increase at all. Also what constitutes as a small or a long arm? Pole-arms and daggers are the extremes obviously but are swords considered long arms? Axes a short arm? Or are they mixtures depending on the particular weapon?
I need to write some helpfiles for these (as you can now type HELP <skill> on that chargen screen and it will show you the helpfile if one exists).

Nonetheless, small arms and long arms are actually for firearms. Small arms will cover pistols and submachine guns, whereas shotguns and rifles will use long arms.

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Re: Combat!!

Post by SomeKnob » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:19 pm

A few things I've noticed about combat from guest lounge guesstimates:

*Getting disarmed or having an arm broken (unless you're using a shield) doesn't seem to matter very much. Right now you can pick up the weapon you dropped and wield it in an uninjured hand before the next round of combat with no obvious disadvantages for doing so. I'm not sure if it's worth the effort to code, but I'd LOVE it if characters were made to choose a "main" hand and trying to fight with their off-hand gave them heavy penalties. Maybe with an ambidextrous merit for people who want to be annoyingly tanky.

*Having either leg broken is absolutely devastating and basically GG, as it should be imo.

*The automatic combat modes you can set (normal/warding/clinching) doesn't try to end a clinch after the person you're fighting has started one. It'd be awesome if you could set a preference to always prioritize breaking a clinch once it's started.

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Re: Combat!!

Post by Raukran » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:26 pm

In addition to what SomeKnob was saying, I believe you can actually rewield a weapon in your damaged hand, as long as it's not completely severed. Severe blows to your hands/arms will make you drop the weapon even without the amputation, but currently you can pick the weapon back up. I also like the idea of a dominant hand and the ambidextrous merit. I've only won one fight from the ground in my testing, and it was rare enough to be an epic moment for me.

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Re: Combat!!

Post by TheEbonPlague » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:54 pm

I think a lot of this current weirdness is that limbs seem to spawn as broken or inoperable (but indeed work but only with the automated commands ex. picking up a sword after dropping it in combat) and a lot of it is Japh just fiddling around with stuff as certain things are now extremely broken such as the inability to end a clinch.

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Re: Combat!!

Post by Japheth » Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:00 am

Almost all of that sounds like fresh bugs. I -did- make some changes with respect to damaged bodyparts recently so maybe I stuffed something up. I will investigate. Similarly with the not ending clinch - sounds like I've stuffed up the logic in the combat move section.

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Re: Combat!!

Post by Japheth » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:40 am

Raukran wrote:In addition to what SomeKnob was saying, I believe you can actually rewield a weapon in your damaged hand, as long as it's not completely severed. Severe blows to your hands/arms will make you drop the weapon even without the amputation, but currently you can pick the weapon back up. I also like the idea of a dominant hand and the ambidextrous merit. I've only won one fight from the ground in my testing, and it was rare enough to be an epic moment for me.
This was actually a bug, found thanks to you guys. I had some overly simplistic logic that only worked if the limb was JUST damaged - in most cases, it was too damaged AND in too much pain, and this mistakenly fell through to the default case, which was "yes, you can use this limb". It will be fixed in the next upload.

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Re: Combat!!

Post by Japheth » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:44 am

SomeKnob wrote:*Getting disarmed or having an arm broken (unless you're using a shield) doesn't seem to matter very much. Right now you can pick up the weapon you dropped and wield it in an uninjured hand before the next round of combat with no obvious disadvantages for doing so. I'm not sure if it's worth the effort to code, but I'd LOVE it if characters were made to choose a "main" hand and trying to fight with their off-hand gave them heavy penalties. Maybe with an ambidextrous merit for people who want to be annoyingly tanky.
It shouldn't allow you to pick up the weapon you dropped; that is a bug. However you should be able to pick up or draw other weapons. Nonetheless, the whole dominant hand thing has been on my todo list for ages, maybe it's time I bumped it up. Of course, it has to be able to account for characters with arbitrarily many arms (how many dominant tentacles does an 8 armed tentacle monster / heavily surgically modified lab subject have?), but I'm sure I can come up with sensible enough answers for these.
SomeKnob wrote:*The automatic combat modes you can set (normal/warding/clinching) doesn't try to end a clinch after the person you're fighting has started one. It'd be awesome if you could set a preference to always prioritize breaking a clinch once it's started.
This occurred because of my recent "staggering blow" changes. Staggering blows are certain armed/unarmed attacks that can "stagger" an enemy and knock them over. They also do end clinches. However, they were supposed to be opt-in as clinch-breakers because you need to be substantially stronger than your opponent and relatively well skilled for them to be viable - however, I had made using them the default case rather than opt in. Hence why people would stand there trying to kick (which is a staggering blow) rather than breaking clinch.

I will ensure that it is opt-in and configurable.

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